Joe the TV personality
Andrew Stark: You’ve been on TV’s ‘The Wine Show’ and the newly launched ‘Drinking With Joe and Maya’. What has TV taught you about wine marketing?
Joe Fattorini: I’ve learned a lot about wine marketing from making a TV show. I didn’t start out in TV – I’ve had a varied career from being a wine merchant to a pop music show in Scotland and bizarrely, a personal finance radio programme.
In terms of wine journalism, I started in Glasgow which meant I couldn’t take myself too seriously because the Glaswegians wouldn’t let me get away with that at all. Also, I realised how different that is from being a wine merchant whose sole purpose is to sell units. In journalism, or communication – the role isn’t that. Your reader/viewer can’t taste that wine as you do, and might not care for the technicalities of it’s production so you have to relate the wine to something which they can connect or relate to.
And that’s the thinking I took into TV.
AS: Give me an example of some interesting insight or fact you would use.
JF: OK, I’d tell people about some other interesting stuff, like the fact that Stella McCartney makes a handbag out of ‘wine waste’.1
AS: People relate to this – or are amused/interested by the story. It’s something that can be repeated at the dinner table and helps a nervous wine buyer get over some hurdles..
JF: Yes, and there’s also if you create a mental scene, it can evoke warm memories of Tuscan hills or French countryside and all that. I work with a premium Chilean wine brand and I could tell you about the different parcels or the nuances of fermentation and other technical things like that – and there IS an audience for this, however I’d say it is a minority, even at this premium (£120/ bottle) level. However, a large number of people who drink this wine appear more interested in the fact that it’s one of Sir Alex Ferguson’s favourite wines. He’s known as a wine collector, and only agreed to the winery (Concha y Toro) being a Manchester United sponsor if he could serve their wine, Don Melchor, in the Executive boxes at Old Trafford!
AS: When you did The Wine Show, you had a segment called ‘Show Us What You’re Drinking’ which had people posting on social media and tagging in the show. Was this an eye-opener?
JF: Yes but perhaps not for what you might initially expect. When we saw the photos it was usually from the drinker’s perspective – holding up their bottle at arm’s length to take the photo themselves. In the background was the TV (with our show on) and the fascinating thing was that in around 50% of the photo was the viewer’s feet, in slippers and up on a lazy boy or pouf (footstool). That made me realise that we weren’t talking to an audience who wanted to be challenged. We were talking to people who quite literally had their feet up and wanted a warm feeling and relaxing evening. Afterwards we looked at other data which told us the number 1 place where people drank wine was during a meal, but number 2 was sat in front of the TV.
AS: But if you were marketing a wine and didn’t research your audience, and perhaps relied on Google or stock imagery to add a human element to your visuals, you’d be mistaken in thinking the average wine drinker is a young couple on a terraced veranda in a metropolitan city?
JF: ..which is what they want to believe but these photos don’t match the reality which, in Britain, the archetypical wine drinker is more likely to be that older slightly posh couple from Gogglebox.
Can we save the planet with canned wine?
AS: I’m fascinated by wine in cans and I’ve been sampling several recently. What really interested me at the start was the consumer perception and associations.
JF: One of my favourite (canned) wines is from Archer Roose who I think have a genius approach to their marketing (think a more modern take on the Gold Blend coffee adverts which followed a character arc). In one commercial, a character (played by actress Elizabeth Banks) is comically in her PJ’s doing her last (very noisy) glass recycling, before telling the viewer how she now drinks luxury wine out of a can. She goes on the say it’s delicious, convenient and a lot less noisy (from judgemental, prying neighbours!).
With that in mind…within the last year, a really interesting report came out from Ogilvy on sustainability. What the report showed was that the number of people who genuinely care is smaller than you’d expect. And even those who do care subconsciously believe they are making a trade-off, ie; because it’s sustainable then it must cost more, or the taste/quality must be compromised.
AS: So what were the recommendations?
JF: The report suggested to stop telling the world you are trying to do the right thing as a lead point. If you are going to make a sustainable claim, bring it as close to the lead benefit without it taking over. And that’s what Archer Roose have done with great effect. Yes, the packaging makes for a more sustainable product, but get to the other points regarding why you drink it.
AS: For me personally it was midweek, and I was sharing a third of a bottle of quality wine with my wife rather than getting through a full bottle of lesser quality. It just made sense.
JF: That’s how it works for me. Not everyone wants a drink all the time and sometimes a glass or two is just fine. I will quite possibly open a can tonight as my wife doesn’t drink midweek and I want a little more than the smallest glass – but have no plans to open and finish a bottle of Château d’Issan 2011 on my own on a Tuesday night.
AS: Some people would argue that the human brain would respond well to a message about sustainability though. The desire to ‘do good’?
JF: I find people and wine to be very literal. There’s a great book; The Master and His Emissary by Iain McGilchrist, where he talks about the left brain being very logical and ordered. So, if you have sustainable packaging then you should tell everyone that and then the good and logical part of the brain tells you that you should buy the product because you want to save the planet.
But humans don’t work that way. They’re messy. Things don’t work in a straight line. Things aren’t always logical. Also, not everyone cares about being more sustainable. About a third of people are opposed to sustainability messaging. (Note; a statement, not debating the wrongs or rights of this!!)
Yes, canned wine in many instances is better for the planet and possibly for you. (justification?) Don’t tell people that. Tell them that it’s sort of funny (like Archer Roose did). Have some idiot like me (because I’m in the world of wine and on the TV) tell people “it’s bloody brilliant, I drink it midweek and the kids just think I’m having a can of pop”.
AS: A few years ago, I did a survey about sustainability messaging on drinks – and the consumer perception. However what people said influenced them didn’t seem to ring true.
JF: Yes – I’ve had a similar experience. By no means a deeply scientific survey but from a reputable company. It did ask wine drinkers in restaurants to list what was important to them (with pre-defined option) – and wine coming from sustainable producers came out as the no. 1 influencing factor. It
had other stuff such as organic. No.5, and last, on the list was vegan – representing the least significant thing they looked for when choosing wine. But I wasn’t buying it at all. What this was declared preference. So I looked at how to view revealed preference – ie; what people actually do. And this, so some extent, exists with search terms on the internet. I did the research (UK based, same time period as the survey and same five terms) and the results were that the list of terms was completely inverted; vegan wines was by far at the top of the list with sustainable producers being at the bottom.
AS: I suppose it makes sense though. Being a true vegan is very strict. You can’t have a ‘bit of bacon’ in a sandwich whereas with sustainability there are degrees of competence.
JF: Well for a starter the shortlist of terms wasn’t the best. Any of them were outranked by search terms of locations, brand names or grape types. But out of the terms, the people who were bothered the most were vegans, so yes – I agree with you.
Wines from ‘challenging’ markets
AS: I’ve noticed an increase in interest in Lebanese wines. Is this down to the instability of the region making the news, their history or just marketing?
JF: Yes, it is a strange one that. Chateau Musar for example has a great heritage and story and the Hochar family are very active advocates for the industry. And people love stories of tenacity in the face of adversity.
Also, for the general public, the Lebanon isn’t instantly associated with wine making so it’s offering something ‘different’.
AS: The ‘challenges’ do interest me with any products and brand. For Chateau Musar the marketing seems to write itself, but there’s other products which have different preconceptions to overcome – such as wine from ‘holiday’ destinations, such as the Canary Islands.
JF: Well people might have visited Tenerife or Lanzarote in the 70’s and labelled the local produce as ‘plonk’ I’m sure. Kind of in the same way your parents may have brought some boxed wine back from France which cost several Francs ‘back in the day’ – but that’s association with cheap holidays in the sun and not a true reflection of the product itself.
AS: Exactly that – but the quality, prevalence and prices would suggest that’s certainly not the case for these wines.
JF: There’s a wonderful woman called Fran Bridgewater who is looking at volcanic wine as a category – contextualising what it really is – because you only get such a short time to do it. I love the work of Orlando Wood where he talks about making impact with word play using memorable lines and arresting visuals. We’ve forgotton humor and rhyme. Tell people about sustainability how Archer Roose did. Have some idiot like me telling people “it’s bloody brilliant”. In marketing we’ve forgotton about humour, rhyme and word-play.
Examples you may know from advertising yesteryear are things like; ‘Made to make your mouth water’ and ‘Put a tiger in your tank’. These wines, although by no means new, will benefit from the visibility and work from Fran in this sort of way.
AS: There’s also an education process as well as encapsulating a real appeal and creating brand ‘fans’.
JF: If I were to say something like “I’m a huge fan of volcanic wines – like the ones of Lanzarote” I’ve not only told you that there’s a wine category which sounds cool to be part of, but it connects to something we all know about – a volcano. And suddenly that’s interesting and not just relevant to the Canary Islands.
I’ve seen it happen with Bulgaria. The story was there essentially was a swamp was converted into vineyards which transformed the landscape and produced brilliant wines. It’s a story. People visualised it. They listened. The same can be done with the unique nature of volcanoes which can break the misconceptions away from sandy beaches and cheap booze.
AS: So true. And once people ‘dig in’ the Canaries have an interesting history with loads of stories and reference points marketers can use.
JF: Yes – you just have to work up to using these in the right way – as with any wine from anywhere in the world. And going back to our earlier conversation, jumping in at acidic levels of the Canarian grape vine is not the starting point. [note; check out by previous conversation with Ollie Horton where we talk about the growth of this sector and it’s associated challenges.]
Wine tourism
AS: Talking about Canary Islands makes me think more broadly of wine tourism. Like with whisky distilleries’ visitor centres and events, it plays a vital role in getting people to explore and discover – and make them into brand advocates (with the t-shirt and hat and so on).
JF: If I was consulting to a new wine brand now I would definitely ask what their events programme looked like and how they intended getting visitors to their premises for this reason. If the experience is done right, brands can really embed themselves into people and they stick by them no matter what. When I was younger I met some people who were life-long Batley Football Club supporters. Now I don’t know what tier of English football they play in but with all due respect, they aren’t Premiership. However fans will support them – win, lose or draw. They will wear their colours with pride. They have the hat the scarf the car sticker and so on. And this is essentially what some drinks brands can achieve.
AS: Is there a danger of the wine being just a by-product of this?
JF: Many of the smaller producers depend on their visitors and tours and associated sales such as food and wedding receptions for income more than product sales that is true. In-fact I once spoke at a wine conference and asked the controversial question – “Is wine production a cost-neutral marketing exercise for profitable wine tourism venues?” I know its certainly true for some of the younger wineries in Sweden.
AS: But you can see the appeal of entertaining people, making some bistro-lunches and then they buy a bottle as they leave so the brand goes home with them.
JF: In the UK for example you could completely stock up, but in Sweden it doesn’t work like that as they can’t sell you produce. You would have to drive to a retailer 10 miles or so down the road.
That’s the thing with this industry; It’s not always straight forward.
Read Part 1 with Joe Fattorini here.
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