Best known as the anchor of ITV’s ‘The Wine Show’ and the forthcoming ‘Drinking with Joe and Maya’, Joe Fattorini has a fascinating understanding of the mundane, but nonetheless important, nuts and bolts of the industry, not just how wine’s made and what it tastes like.
You, wine, confidence and snobbery.

Andrew Stark: Hi Joe. I wanted to start off talking about the average ‘every man’ wine drinker – the type of person who wants something ‘nice’ but doesn’t want to look like a misinformed luddite.
Joe Fattorini: I’d say about 95% of wine drinkers are just that. They want something cold and wet and tasty that relaxes them on an evening – but their number one goal is “I really hope I don’t embarrass myself in front of my friends/colleagues by drinking this…”
AS: ..so this is a ‘status’ thing?
JF: Status definitely plays a role. In a work/entertainment situation the self-implied pressure (or desire) to show off is different to someone having a drink at home with no audience as such. I’ve statistics which support this. Also, when we filmed The Wine Show (www.thewineshow.com) we had a social-media feature, ‘Show Us Your Wine’. It was great to see the relevant hash tags trending, but even more insightful to see the image posted, not for the quality of the wine, but for the background in the image. More often or not this was people sat at home in front of their TV, feet up and slippers on. People naturally have their comfort zones and perhaps the person at home is the most natural one from these examples.
AS: Do you see your role as communicating to a particular demographic?
JF: I like to be able to demystify and normalise wine and take the snobbery away from it. The problem I have (in my role) is that there’s already an expectation that I will be elaborate and technical about wine – but that isn’t always the case! I wouldn’t say I have a particular demographic – just a certain approach. Plus I like to consider the audience. Rather than going into reams of information, you need to understand who you’re talking to and what makes them tick.
AS: Do you see this as a route of many problems in wine marketing?
JF: Lots of wine marketing (labels, websites, etc) is designed by ‘wine people’, ie; people who know about the product. At this point it becomes too easy and self-congratulatory to wax lyrical about grapes and harvests and technical info. Yes, this IS important, but to a large majority of people it becomes a different language and can be a barrier.
AS: That’s coming down to classic marketing though – understand your audience and communicate in a language they understand…
JF: Very much so, and that’s important to remember. We were talking about the ‘every man’ drinker and making wine approachable, even just in the language used.
AS: We were, however I suspect you weren’t suggesting wine marketing goes back to some of the supermarket levels of 20 years ago? (I make reference to a wine called ‘Great With Fish’…)
JF: Ha. I don’t remember that one personally, but that level is a little blunt. That said, I do feel some wine marketers do miss the trick of simply telling people what sort of drink it is.
I once did some research which led to comparative advertising to test different messaging. Sample 1 talked about flavour terms; strawberries, vanilla and oak for example. Sample 2 gave recommendations for what meal this would compliment – such as a family Sunday lunch of roast lamb. In the third sample we used texture terms, so would say things like ‘an elegant and refined wine with a rich palate’. By a country mile the most clicked on advert was the latter using the texture terms.
AS: Which was the most unpopular, or least clicked on?
JF: A clear winner again. It was the one which said “it tastes of xyz.”
AS: So would you say user case (ie; ‘Great With Fish’) isn’t important?
JF: I wouldn’t way it isn’t important – it does have its place but the texture terms (in our test) appealed more. Describing something as ‘rich’, ‘elegant’ or ‘generous’ perhaps describes human traits which people aspire to be. Whereas if you described a wine as ‘lean’ and ‘taut’ doesn’t inspire you to want to drink it.
AS: It’s clearly the more emotive words which resonate.
JF: Very much so – and importantly I’ve the data to support this.

AS: Marketing is communication and making things accessible to the right person at the right time. Do you find wine consumers have different buying personas?
JF: I remember Bibendum’s wine app from the early days of the iPhone which was designed to help you chose a bottle of wine based on taste preferences – and as with apps, there was geolocation tools and postcode tools and all that which gave interesting insights. The user profile was young-middle aged men with high spend and mostly lived in wealthy West-London postcodes. What was extraordinary is that their palates ‘changed’ at Victoria station. When they were at home they searched Argentine Malbec, Australian Shiraz – essentially soft, plush rounded New World styles of wine. However when they were at work – in The City, Canary Wharf – what they were looking for was dry, lean Bordeaux, Burgundies and Barolo’s. The point is they wouldn’t buy the house Malbec to impress at a business meeting and would of course go for a crusty bottle of claret!
AS: So the notation of us all having a particular palate…?
JF: In this example that’s not true. It depends on so many factors from the occasion, the company. What wine is appropriate is entirely contextual from holding a business dinner to sat at home watching Homes Under the Hammer.
AS: With this in mind you can also tap in sins and virtues..
JF: Absolutely. Date Night (lust) is a prime example for how wines can be promoted this way. And sins always outperform virtues…
AS: This brings me to ‘story telling’ – a much talked about, and used, tool in marketing. On a recent Substack of yours you used a great example of this.
JF: Oh, yes – you’re referring to 19 Crimes! I love this as an example as wine storytelling often falls into a few different categories, such as; “…my family have owned this vineyard for generations…” or “…I made a load of money and now I’m relaxing in my Italian vineyard I just bought and actually it’s quite good…” and so on. And the roles of these types of stories is to assure you that the product is of a good standard and can be trusted. However if you consider what we started talking about you can see that 19 Crimes has taken a completely different approach. They don’t allude to the quality of the product or drone on with lengthy comparisons to things we think we know.

AS: To me it appears as it’s a marketing exercise first and wine second.
JF: I’d agree. First off, they haven’t led with the producer’s name, vineyard, grape, year or country as you’d probably expect – and this may anger ‘purists’, however they’ve used other techniques to anchor you in.
AS: Well, the name for a start..
JF: Yes, 19 Crimes relates to a list of offences which could, back in the late 1700’s, get you deported to Australia – (such as Grand Larceny, stealing lead, bigamy and impersonating an Egyptian….). The brand have used these which works on two levels; Firstly, the word ‘crime’ pays into a rebellious nature. Its far removed from the more gentle terms a wine might use – and targeted to a demographic for whom wine terminology means nothing.
Secondly, they’ve used number anchoring theory which makes you feel like you are getting greater value (19 Crimes for under £10!).
AS: But then it gets more immersive with the ‘talking label’.
JF: I mean this is pure data capture. People might sit around a dinner table laughing at what crime an ancestor might have committed to get deported (wine-embarrassment gone, conversation piece; delivered) and then they get out their smart phones to tap into the augmented reality.
AS: However we all know that the fact the label talks isn’t the clever thing.
JF: Exactly. That captured data tells the producer much more about who is buying their wine, where they are in the world, what day of the week they consume it, what time of day and so on and so on.
AS: It’s not a new concept though – I’m thinking DunnHunby in 1994.
JF: The Tesco Clubcard is certainly a great example, and what 19 Crimes have done is use a different method of data capture. The reward in this instance is entertainment.
AS: So rather than been an often derided wine (for it’s quality), it’s actually a great marketing case study..?
JF: Yes.
Endorsement, perception and other influences.
AS: I’m really interested in consumer perception, influence and endorsement. What’s your thoughts on this?
JF: I don’t know if this is totally true, but I was once told about a group of what was essentially young, attractive women who were paid to frequent exclusive nightclubs in London and their expenses budget was the same as their salary. All they were asked to do was go and drink ‘XYZ’ with their
friends. People saw this and either wanted to be one of these glamorous young women, or hang about with them!
They just know it can’t be that bad if someone like Kylie put her name on it. To quote Rory Sutherland, ‘it’s guaranteed not to be shit’.
Joe FATTORINI
AS: And it happens across so many industries; such as musical instruments, cars, clothing, jewellery…
JF: There’s a specific term for it; ‘parasocial relationships’. (Joe admits to being a frustrated academic! It’s defined as; one-sided relationships, where one person extends emotional energy, interest and time, and the other party, the persona, is completely unaware of the other’s existence. So now you know.) I love this intersection of where sociology and psychology intersect – you really see it with celebrity-endorsed
products, such as Kylie Minogue’s rosé (possibly the UK’s no.1 rose at the mid/premium price point. Sells millions of cases..). The reason it sells so well isn’t because it’s the best rose on the market. People don’t care. They just know it can’t be that bad if someone like Kylie put her name on it. To quote Rory Sutherland, ‘it’s guaranteed not to be shit’.
AS: So from Kylie to Gary Barlow to Frances Ford Coppola to Leif Persson. That’s covering quite some demographic…!
JF: …and if you just take their social media following alone, it’s already doing more than a poster campaign or press advert.
But it’s where people find their familiarity and comfort zone. If they’ve already bought into ‘brand Kylie’ in terms of music, fashion, ethics and values then for them the wine might be a no-brainer.
AS: This works with the role of the sales assistant in a retail environment, or sommelier at a restaurant, or TV wine presenter; people look for advice from other who know better?
JF: Of course – but this then also comes down to how trust is portrayed. If you already know Gary Barlow from being on TV (does Gary Barlow impression), then you have a perception. And what’s great about Gary is that he’s satirised himself. He’s not taking himself so seriously (which a ‘proper’ wine person would) and everyone it watching his ham-fisted Instagram posts – and this makes it so much more approachable.
The wine buyer in the UK actually may have a parasocial relationship with their wine merchant
Joe FATTORINI
AS: How does this work in the Swedish market? (Joe lives in Sweden).
JF: In Sweden any celebrity worth their salt has their own personalised wine – even Leif Persson – a gruff-looking criminologist and novelist – has his own wine. Because of the nature of the Swedish monopoly system, you can go into a monopoly-run shop and the staff are not allowed to recommend you a wine they like. Also, they are very socially responsible – so they will probably ask you what food you want to the wine to pair with as well as your budget.
They will then recommend a half bottle for that budget, on the basis that it’s more socially responsible to consumer wine in smaller quantities. They will recommend something that is a recognised food match, but also something that is in sustainable packaging/more environmentally friendly. What they can’t do (as we would in the UK) is say ‘I really love this wine’. So this means the wine buyer in the UK actually may have a parasocial relationship with their wine merchant; ‘I’ve come her for the past 10 years and trust his/her judgement, Plus, I quite like them too.’, but in Sweden this is replaced with ‘well I quite like that TV detective, so this wine of theirs can’t be that bad’.
AS: This celebrity relationship/endorsement can backfire – ‘adult’ film star Ron Jeremy’s Rum for example.
JF: Yes, and there are other examples of celebrities closer to home whose reputation has been tarnished or star has dwindled – and then their brand is worthless. (Note; we’ve generalised here as the aim of this wasn’t to list those shamed celebs whose wine has now been ditched or relabelled….).
AS: What about other – non-celebrity – influences?
JF: Something that springs to mind is the ‘Grange Effect’.
AS: Please explain..
JF: Basically, every bottle of Penfolds contains an element of Grange – the producer’s premium product. So, you buy a bottle of £12 Koonunga Hill for example, and the perception/association is that it’s a ‘bit like’ a £500 bottle of Grange because it contains some. Only diluted. It’s the same with Whispering Angel and Garrus…
AS: I understand that and could, potentially, lead to an almighty up-sell too!
JF: Well one part of the range is ‘affordable’ and ‘accessible’ and the other is ‘premium’ and people aspire to it. This isn’t unique to the wine industry at all but again, it’s psychology at work.

Joe Fattorini is a journalist, author, TV presenter and wine consultant.
Known for TV word such as The Wine Show and the upcoming Drinking With Joe and Maya, Joe has also written for some of the most prestigious wine publications as well as several of his own books.
www.joefattorini.com
www.joefattorini.substack.com
To read Part 2 with Joe, click here.
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